No it makes perfect sense to me that analogy

Jus because the technology is new, does not make it automatically better than what went before.

technology does not mean 'better' it just means 'different'

hmmm...ableton is like an apple picking machine, those apples arent as good as the ones hand picked by farmers, those ones are vinyls...

same thing as the auto/manual (no not the marco V Track) analogy, more work = better result? more enjoyment? or higher quality end product?

not necessarily...

if i tried an apple that was picked by a machine, who cant tell the difference wether its ripe or not like a farmer hand picking it would...it doesnt necessarily mean that apple isnt possibly as good or even better than the hand picked one...

if i listen to two sets, each by the same DJ, (because we're grouping categorically here, Vinyls Vs. Ableton) lets say sasha, and one is done completely on ableton, the other completely with vinyl...if i dont know which is which, it can go both ways, i may like the ableton set, i may like the Vinyl set...like i said the more work doesnt always 100 % of the time mean a better result...

but if im watching it live...i would say the ableton set would get boring, theres no energy there...its just like putting together a winamp frickin playlist IMO, and it feels as if theres not the same level of crowd interaction...but hell i'll still dance, im not gonna stand there and pout like some morons would...appreciate it for what it is, Music.

as for the apples thing...i was just trying to make the wierdest stupidest comparison i could think of...

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quote:

Originally posted by Freak No it makes perfect sense to me that analogy Jus because the technology is new, does not make it automatically better than what went before. technology does not mean 'better' it just means 'different'

His analogy has nothing to do with a technology being better.

By default, I think the car matters less than the driver, and how he/she uses the car.

You are all placing too much emphasis on the tools DJ's are using and less emphasis on HOW they are using them, and to what result.

Sure an ableton set can be boring. So can a CDJ/vinyl set. So can any set. It doesnt fucking matter what you use, what matters is how you use it.

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quote:

Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

there's so much more you can do with ableton. it's only boring when the DJ doesn't use it to its full advantage.

quote:

Originally posted by Clovis86 His analogy has nothing to do with a technology being better. By default, I think the car matters less than the driver, and how he/she uses the car. You are all placing too much emphasis on the tools DJ's are using and less emphasis on HOW they are using them, and to what result. Sure an ableton set can be boring. So can a CDJ/vinyl set. So can any set. It doesnt fucking matter what you use, what matters is how you use it.

Just out of curiousity since you are one of Ableton's biggest supporters, why is it then that all the pro-Ableton people fit the bill with what Freak said above? Why are you guys so quick to bash vinyl and the older dj tools all of a sudden since Ableton has come out? As Freak said, the technology may be new, but that doesn't automatically make it better like you guys need to constantly proclaim. It simply expands your options. I'm just not sure if this comes from bandwagon ignorance, or if it is because of the "wow" factor involved.

This is something I never understood and still don't, because IMO, that IS indeed placing the emphasis on the tools. No offense is meant if you don't act like this, however I'm speaking in general terms from some stuff I've read... and I couldn't agree more that it doesn't matter what the tools are as long as the results are there.

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quote:

Originally posted by DJ Intrigue Just out of curiousity since you are one of Ableton's biggest supporters, why is it then that all the pro-Ableton people fit the bill with what Freak said above? Why are you guys so quick to bash vinyl and the older dj tools all of a sudden since Ableton has come out? As Freak said, the technology may be new, but that doesn't automatically make it better like you guys need to constantly proclaim. It simply expands your options. I'm just not sure if this comes from bandwagon ignorance, or if it is because of the "wow" factor involved. This is something I never understood and still don't, because IMO, that IS indeed placing the emphasis on the tools. No offense is meant if you don't act like this, however I'm speaking in general terms from some stuff I've read... and I couldn't agree more that it doesn't matter what the tools are as long as the results are there.

I cant speak for other people, since I dont hold that opinion against people who play records. I also play CDs myself. Like I said, the medium, is not whats most important to me. It is, in the sense that I am maybe a little more impressed if I see someone like Lee Burridge mix out of Sasha's mac using wax and makes it sound fucking perfect. But not that much.

This topic has been discussed to death on this board, and everytime, a few of us feel like we're repeating ourselves. Theres always a few idiots who think Ableton takes the skill out of djing, aswell as those who think it is a higher form of DJing. The people who actually pay attention will figure out that the tools are much less important than how and by who they are used, and like I said, to what result.

Also, ableton does beatmatching for you. That is the end of what it helps you do. The mix happens at mixer level, and in general, seasoned DJ's will spend much lest time beatmatching than they will working the mixer.

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quote:

Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

I have tried Ableton, really gave it the chance it deserved. The bottom line is that it's a great piece of kit and can open up options. But it is really, really boring!

I have now seen and heard a lot of sets on Ableton. They tend to fall into two categories and they are:

1. The set is mixed back to back and does nothing that you coudln't do on vinyl and most times less than you could do on CDJs. This to me feels like a bit of a cop out. Some sets were not bad but definately lacked that quality ingredient.

2. The DJ was really busy, head down. The set was crammed full of creative stuff, but the problem is that this really impacted the flow of the music and actually ends up being more about the DJ than the crowd.
It was very self indulgent and not fun to watch. You could see someone with headphones and a laptop on a subway train too... about as interesting to watch.

I don't dispute that Ableton has great capabilities, but remember we play music that already has a lot of effects and loops etc. As it stands if you have a DJ that is good with effects and tricks there is already a risk that it can be over done on the existing formats.

I am also of the opinion that you will get guys who will find the balance and you will get some pretty awesome stuff out if it.

Analogies:

A good driver will always be a good driver be it manual or automatic. The problem with an automatic is that it can make an inferior driver seem better than they really are in certain aspects.
An automatic car can be less fun to drive.
But you have to be careful as Cars are pretty similar in terms of overall concept, when you compare decks to Ableton you are not making a true comparison. Ableton is primarily a live production tool that has been adapted by DJs and was not originally designed for DJs specifically.

I think a lot of resentment from the vinyl guys comes from the fact that you have a lot of guys jumping on the Ableton band waggon and calling themselve DJs because they can warp the files and and do a seemless mix. The vinyl guys might feel like its cheating as to develop your skills you have to pay your dues.

The flip side of that coin is that there are plenty of people who can beat match but they can't DJ.

Using Ableton isn't difficult, and this may be why the more traditional DJs feel threatened, as it has basically just rendered them obsolete in the eyes of some people.

There is also a certain preceived snobbery from the Ableton camp that gets on the nerves of some people. If this is true or not is a different matter.

It s not estetically pleasing to look at, it just plain looks wrong to me.

I'm not denying that it may be the future... but at this point the future looks boring.

Reading a crowd can be done by both types of DJ, but the question with Ableton is that if you are emersed in your effects and loops, do you get the time to do this, or does this become something that is lost? Can also be said for a tricks and skills based regular DJ too.

These are just my thoughts... not stating as a matter of fact.

Cheers
Nem

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