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-- ::::::::. **** TA DJ Challenge Series - Genre Challenge 7 (COMPLETE) **** .::::::::
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Well, the smaller a genre is the more distinct it's going to be right? The entries here vary enormously in ambiguity. How is funky breaks different from other breakbeat music? How is psychill different?
I'm unfamiliar with the etiquette here when it comes to picking genres here and I'm certainly not someone who can explain and rationalize the confines of every genre, there's always an element of interpretation.

I think NY Hard house is valid enough, depending on what you take from it. If you just interpret it as early house with loud 909 kicks then you can quite comfortably make a mix that doesn't involve a single NY artist I'd think. It's just handy to make the distinction.

I mean, you've apparently done a chicago/detroid house mix for this challenge before ziptnf, Did you find that too constrictive?

I will be picking a different genre by the way, but I find it an interesting discussion.

I think NY hard house is definitely distinct from Chicago hard house (which tends to focus more on a distorted 909 and - DJ Godfather, DJ Bam Bam, DJ Deeon) and the more fast-paced UK stuff (Lisa Lashes, BK)...

Wish Scoops and Mark Anthony were in this thread, they could back me up on how huge this sound was back in the day...

Vetoing a genre just contradicts the whole point of this challenge. Plus, NY hard house is as legit of a genre as you could possibly get. Anyway, I'm officially out.

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Originally posted by Bierheld Well, the smaller a genre is the more distinct it's going to be right? The entries here vary enormously in ambiguity. How is funky breaks different from other breakbeat music? How is psychill different? I'm unfamiliar with the etiquette here when it comes to picking genres here and I'm certainly not someone who can explain and rationalize the confines of every genre, there's always an element of interpretation.

Well sure, but there's a line. You don't want to be too specific, nor do you want to be too general. "World fusion psychedelic" is way too micro-niche and "Techno" is way too general.

Also, I don't know how you didn't answer your own question there: funky breaks are funky breaks. The sound is distinct and obvious. Psychill is an entire sound library with hundreds of artists. Those are perfectly acceptable genres (with "funky" breaks being more of a guideline to the expected sound rather than a defined style).

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I think NY Hard house is valid enough, depending on what you take from it. If you just interpret it as early house with loud 909 kicks then you can quite comfortably make a mix that doesn't involve a single NY artist I'd think. It's just handy to make the distinction.

Yeah, and that's why I'm giving NY Hard house a chance, because it seems to be distinct enough, with enough examples and sound profiles to be valid.

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I mean, you've apparently done a chicago/detroid house mix for this challenge before ziptnf, Did you find that too constrictive?

Not really. It wasn't exactly easy, and I'm sure Adam would have redefined his description today if he had the chance. After posting my mix, he reviewed with the note saying "All I was really aiming for with this mix was the American house sound: diva vocals, horns, funk, disco-influences". Looking back, it would have been easier to name the genre "American house" rather than Chicago/Detroit.

The issue here is that Italian techno can't be separated from the other techno styles, and that's why I don't think it can be accepted.

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Originally posted by 2techs Vetoing a genre just contradicts the whole point of this challenge. Plus, NY hard house is as legit of a genre as you could possibly get. Anyway, I'm officially out.

The purpose of the veto was to get rid of a genre that is least liked by a majority of the members. If 90% of the contestants dislike a genre, and someone gets it, they are less likely to do their mix.

Can't please everyone though. Sorry you don't want to participate.

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Originally posted by Mr Game+Watch I think NY hard house is definitely distinct from Chicago hard house (which tends to focus more on a distorted 909 and - DJ Godfather, DJ Bam Bam, DJ Deeon) and the more fast-paced UK stuff (Lisa Lashes, BK)... Wish Scoops and Mark Anthony were in this thread, they could back me up on how huge this sound was back in the day...

Yet there were so many huge sounds back then. If I had not been part of an internet community which is heavily America-centric I would never have been able to make heads or tails out of this entry. That's the problem with regional genres I suppose.

Where exactly would one find NY hard house if he gets assigned such a genre?

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Originally posted by ziptnf Well sure, but there's a line. You don't want to be too specific, nor do you want to be too general. "World fusion psychedelic" is way too micro-niche and "Techno" is way too general. Also, I don't know how you didn't answer your own question there:

Because I wasn't asking a question but exemplifying my point about interpretability. Adjectives like "funky" or "psychadelic" mean very little by themselves, but we have a clear frame of reference to connect a certain sound to them making them obvious picks.

I'm just trying to explain the logic behind my pick. I figured if NY hardhouse is simply an interpretation of a genre that was held by people that lived in the NY area, then Italian Techno can be regarded as a similar concept. I just didn't factor in the distinctness because I find it a hard thing to put my finger on at times. And you can tell I'm not the only one having difficulties with providing a clear explanation for it. Again it depends on what sort of music you've been exposed to over the years.
If you can't figure it out you can always just fall back on copying whatever the artists that championed the scene were doing.

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Originally posted by Mr.Mystery Where exactly would one find NY hard house if he gets assigned such a genre?

Compilations and DJ mixes from some of the artists that were supplied I presume. I have yet to check if it's well represented on Beatport, but I presume so given the stature of the genre. It is very old though.

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Originally posted by Bierheld Because I wasn't asking a question but exemplifying my point about interpretability. Adjectives like "funky" or "psychadelic" mean very little by themselves, but we have a clear frame of reference to connect a certain sound to them making them obvious picks.

Right, clarifying the sound is one of the most important points of suggesting a genre. Dark prog. Hard trance. Psychedelic chillout. Those are all clear styles that can be found in many different forms and interpretations. Italian techno seems to be lacking that distinction.

Herein lies another problem that Nik just highlighted: it's going to be very difficult with certain specific (also "older") genres if the tracks aren't available digitally. It should go without saying that asking someone to purchase 10 vinyls on discogs for a challenge with tracks in a genre they won't play out is quite overboard.

I did a random google search for those who just can't find their way around a real genre. here's 3 textbook NY hard house tracks all available on beatport.

http://www.beatport.com/track/giv-m...nal-mix/4115984
http://www.beatport.com/track/hidea...o-score/1130719
http://www.beatport.com/track/stay-...auma-mix/283962

More NYC hard house stuff on BP:

http://www.beatport.com/track/let-m...club-mix/341914

http://www.beatport.com/track/music...nal-mix/3164495

http://www.beatport.com/track/lift-...h-remix/1192398

http://www.beatport.com/track/the-l...ht-remix/233349

Hell there's even a NY hard house remix of a J-pop artist :P

I've been doing some googling as well. I think Game+watch's examples are telling here. What you appear to be after is a specific sort of slightly chunky diva house brought out by the handful of artists you mention.
Thing is from what I gather about hard house It started in Chicago in the late eighties and was eventually shipped off to Europe were it blew up into a truckload of early hardcore and rave styles as well as well as the more distinct and reputable UK hard house.
As for NY in particular I couldn't find a whole lot in that regard. It got there very early and a lot of music spawned from there, but from what I read the city's output was very eclectic in that aspect.
My concern is that this is the result of people from a very different time and location finding a couple of NY artists making this sort of music and then conjuring up a genre around it disregarding the rest of what came out of a city with an 8 million popfig.

I could find no mixes of it on soundcloud, and on youtube I only found this:



Which again is rather more indistinct then what the contestant is hinting at.

So again, it can be done. But the genre's "NY" part is Iffy.
You can go any number of ways with it. Which is a good thing, don't get me wrong. But if you want that particular sound you might come out disappointed unless you change it to something like NY-diva-hard-house-vasquezviciousrazornguido. Which I assume is too specific.

So we have confirmed that NY Hard House can indeed be separated from other house styles, and it can be found digitally online.

I think the important thing is to focus on the style rather than the region. Luke, I'm certain you would accept a submission that contained tracks not directly produced in New York, but embodying the sound that you are looking for?

I have already accepted NY Hard House as a genre. Bierheld, go ahead and submit your replacement suggestion. Just a few more days until the challenge starts!

Well, since there's a lot of craziness in the submitted genre's already so far, I was thinking of counteracting it with 'downtempo lounge'. To clarify, the first term is to separate it from the lounge that operates at house tempos.

Okay, that's a fine replacement. Downtempo and Lounge are both valid genres/descriptors.

Please start the veto process here:

http://tranceaddict.com/forums/show...threadid=696124

Any late signups still have a chance.

Mr Game Watch's examples were NY hard house albeit more emphasis on the diva vocalist compared to my examples.

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Originally posted by Bierheld

lol now that's not NY hard house. in all fairness, you'll be hard pressed to find the tag NY hard house or hard house on the internet and actually find the exact music.

despite all the inaccuracies of genre tagging on discogs, the submitter actually got it right. this compilation sums up everything about the genre I've been defending in this thread.

http://www.discogs.com/Junior-Vasqu...k/release/92457

I'm just saying, this might be the most obscure and hyper-specific genre I've ever come across.
Fire it up in google And you get absolutely nothing of any use, Youtube: nothing. Soundcloud: nothing, wikipedia: nothing. Even though it was apparently a huge thing.
We have examples here from like what, half a dozen artists? Some of which sound nothing alike.
It made sense to me the way sand-leaper brought it, who again gave an example that was nothing like what was posted later, as he was referring the continental split in early hardhouse.

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Originally posted by Bierheld I'm just saying, this might be the most obscure and hyper-specific genre I've ever come across.

Really? Spend fifteen seconds here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ic_music_genres

If you're really this confused about NY Hard House, start with Junior Vasquez and move outward from there.

you could imagine how an asian kid like myself was able to discover such music when I had nothing to work with online. people are discrediting it simply because of fucking ignorance and they just shove it to the side because they don't want it to exist in their mind. let me spew out two words: Junior Vasquez. Check out his sets, compilations, and tracks by him and featuring him and you just got everything you need to work with if you do get the genre. Although I'm not in the challenge, I'll be disappointed if it gets omitted from the competition.


w/e let me drop another NY Hard House artist: John Creamer. yeah, I thought he would sound familiar. dark prog wouldn't have been the genre it became had it not been for him jumping ship when prog got real hot.

Jan was right in his first post. That sound was better known as "tribal house" in its day. I've heard the "hard house" label bandied about occasionally but that has been retrospectively eclipsed by the two more famous breeds of hard house Jan gave. Consequently, there's nothing much about "NYC hard house" on Google, but you only have to go to Wikipedia to find this:

quote:

Tribal house rose to prominence off the releases of New York labels Tribal America Records and, to a lesser extent, Strictly Rhythm Records. The music was a staple in New York's most prominent clubs such as the Sound Factory and Roxy NYC. Tribal America Records' infamy within this sub-genre stemmed from their globally popular releases by Danny Tenaglia, Junior Vasquez, Deep Dish, Eric Kupper (aka K-Scope) and Murk amongst others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal_house

The thing is, the music we're talking about more-or-less originated from the NYC garage sound, when producers like Todd Terry began emphasising the bassy, rhythmic side of garage at the end of the '80s instead of the soulful song-ful aspects. Garage rhythms are what separate the New York tribal/hard house sound from what tribal more notoriously became in the early '00s, when it was verging on sterile tech/progressive house filled with conga loops and pitched down voices talking about "The drums, drums, drums..." ad nauseum. Inevitably, you can thank Sasha and Digweed and their Twilo residency for convincing a lot of NYC producers to ditch the garage origins of the music and retain the booming rhythms to better match with the all-conquering sounds of progressive house.

(Needless to say, this use of "tribal" has nothing to do with what jonmitz meant earlier in the thread, hence the mass confusion.)

Personally I think the easiest solution for you guys is to change it to NYC hard and tribal house.

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Originally posted by Lews Really? Spend fifteen seconds here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ic_music_genres

Yeah, and isn't it telling that it isn't mentioned even on an extensive list such as this?

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If you're really this confused about NY Hard House, start with Junior Vasquez and move outward from there.

I've already accepted that this is apparently going to be a Vasquez tribute-mix. that's fine.
I'm just trying to put things in perspective here. I don't buy 2techs wild proclamations about this really being a genre. It's a specific house flavour from a few artists in one city that momentarily existed 30+ years ago, and were talking about it as if it's the most obvious thing in the world.

-edit- Never mind. We got some more clarification up above here.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Jan was right in his first post. That sound was better known as "tribal house" in its day. I've heard the "hard house" label bandied about occasionally but that has been retrospectively eclipsed by the two more famous breeds of hard house Jan gave. Consequently, there's nothing much about "NYC hard house" on Google, but you only have to go to Wikipedia to find this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal_house The thing is, the music we're talking about more-or-less originated from the NYC garage sound, when producers like Todd Terry began emphasising the bassy, rhythmic side of garage at the end of the '80s instead of the soulful song-ful aspects. Garage rhythms are what separate the New York tribal/hard house sound from what tribal more notoriously became in the early '00s, when it was verging on sterile tech/progressive house filled with conga loops and pitched down voices talking about "The drums, drums, drums..." ad nauseum. Inevitably, you can thank Sasha and Digweed and their Twilo residency for convincing a lot of NYC producers to ditch the garage origins of the music and retain the booming rhythms to better match with the all-conquering sounds of progressive house. (Needless to say, this use of "tribal" has nothing to do with what jonmitz meant earlier in the thread, hence the mass confusion.) Personally I think the easiest solution for you guys is to change it to NYC hard and tribal house.

the thing is, NY Hard House already encapsulates the tribal house sound. it also encapsulates diva house, and it was all rolled into one. Sure I obviously wasn't "there" back in the 90's, but the notion that the term Hard House didn't exist in the new york club scene back then is just revisionist history.

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Originally posted by Bierheld I'm just trying to put things in perspective here. I don't buy 2techs wild proclamations about this really being a genre. It's a specific house flavour from a few artists in one city that momentarily existed 30+ years ago, and were talking about it as if it's the most obvious thing in the world.

I give up.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Garage rhythms are what separate the New York tribal/hard house sound from what tribal more notoriously became in the early '00s, when it was verging on sterile tech/progressive house filled with conga loops and pitched down voices talking about "The drums, drums, drums..." ad nauseum.

You couldn't be talking about this, could you?

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Originally posted by 2techs the thing is, NY Hard House already encapsulates the tribal house sound.

I'd say it's the other way around - tribal house has ended up being the more famous, longer-running and more recognisable strain of house music, and so "NYC hard house" can be viewed as a stage in the development of tribal. But really, I don't give a shit either way. I'm just pointing out some facts and history that will help Bierheld and anyone else get a handle on what defines this music, and also suggesting that broadening the definition slightly will be much more painless.

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Originally posted by Lews You couldn't be talking about this, could you?

That and about a thousand other tracks from the same era.

Yup, there was tons of crossover with tribal house (John Creamer and Stephane K, early Steve Lawler, et al), Jack did a great synopsis up above...

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