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vector A - nice beginning really like it! and MSZ, yep yep yep, no crits.......

quote:

Originally posted by Woony Nice loop, kick is lacking in lows though and feels a bit clinical overall, could use a bit of warming up and saturation.

Thanks for that, spot on.

So, here's the newest project. Usually try to stay away from F# -> D# -> A#...oh well. It's a bit quick into the main theme, but lately I've been starting at the build before a main theme and adding intro / outtro last...seems to be helping my workflow and arranging.



- Planned : Complete Intro, Next build and Outtro, design more intense / interesting builds, clean up and add FX for more interesting breakdown, try to tighten kick / bass a little more and fine tune low-end, better blending / spacing of background synths.

Maybe add a final melody. during the 2nd half of the breakdown into the next buildup...

quote:

Originally posted by theterran So, here's the newest project. Usually try to stay away from F# -> D# -> A#...oh well. It's a bit quick into the main theme, but lately I've been starting at the build before a main theme and adding intro / outtro last...seems to be helping my workflow and arranging. - Planned : Complete Intro, Next build and Outtro, design more intense / interesting builds, clean up and add FX for more interesting breakdown, try to tighten kick / bass a little more and fine tune low-end, better blending / spacing of background synths. Maybe add a final melody. during the 2nd half of the breakdown into the next buildup...

Sounds great and a cool melody
Get some nice tight analogy drums in there

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Originally posted by MSZ Yea I think a nonsidechained lush pad over that would be quite nice. My panasonic boombox mix with 50% more stray fifths, just a loop basically.

These lush things you churn out make you the pad / drone / atmos top dog

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Butler Sounds great and a cool melody Get some nice tight analogy drums in there

Hey, thanks for the listen!

So, the entire kit? Kick? Hats? Add analog percussion?

Kick...probably, it's a boring kick I think.

Pretty firm on keeping the hats...Was a pain finding a metallic / wet timbre I liked...and smoothing them out was also...a pain. They're much sexier above 128 bitrate.

Any suggestions on particular drum samples to peruse?

If I were to nitpick I would layer in another clap with a thicker transient but not over-so; that might help with tying in the hihats as well. I mean if you were going for hyperbeast production I suppose one would say articulation in the low end would need some work but you'll only get so far with your chosen floppy paddish bass. I guess other than a/bing the kick with some other tracks more or less the piece sounds balanced for the dated sounds you've chosen; nice mids dood: you can nitpick any track almost.

Nice, MSZ and theterran.

Is this working - slow pad and bassline ?

quote:

Originally posted by MSZ If I were to nitpick I would layer in another clap with a thicker transient but not over-so; that might help with tying in the hihats as well.

I understand. Will definitely give this a shot. Will probably start by loosening up the current clap a little, add a touch more verb and bring it up a smidge to see how it reacts. Probably seated it a little too deep into the mix, yeah.

quote:

I mean if you were going for hyperbeast production I suppose one would say articulation in the low end would need some work but you'll only get so far with your chosen floppy paddish bass.

Nah, I wasn't...hyperbeast production is unrealistic given my current setup. That, and I'm really not obsessed with it as much anymore. Sure, it's fun working towards excellent production, but I don't stress over it, I just want something I can enjoy listening to, that will translate well to different systems...Probably the only people that can consciously hear the difference anyway are producers and mastering engineers...I've tested this theory on my friends...

So I just do what I can with what I've got... Pair of hs50m's, DT880 250 ohm through an Oxygen O2 and some Klipsch RF-82 II's + 10" sub for the hi-fi / sub-bass check. Current room(s) are also fairly pitiful...As Texas basically has tile floors and big windows in every house, in every room...

Floppy bass, lol, yeah that's about right. I agree though...The top end of the bass I still like...but the low-end should probably be gutted and replaced with another more precise / manageable bass layered in.

Usually save low-end cleanup for last because it's a pain transferring back and forth to the hi-fi system with the sub. I've been tempted on several occasions to pick up the Yamaha HS sub or get the 80M's, but I've been cautioned against it.

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I guess other than a/bing the kick with some other tracks more or less the piece sounds balanced for the dated sounds you've chosen; nice mids dood: you can nitpick any track almost.

I have a few ideas of what kinda kick I'd want. Best way I can describe is visually + adjectives...

If the current kick is (O), I want [O]. Thick, heavy, slightly fluffy. More of a thud, than a thump. I don't have anything in the library that matches this description very well. (My drum sample library is on the small'ish side) Usually I'll just try to get close, or build / layer a kick...But maybe now is a good time to look into expanding the drumkit library for once.

They are dated sounds...but I love them. I stray occasionally and flirt with other sounds, but I always find myself coming back...Will probably be stuck in the 90's for awhile...

Great overall critique though. I appreciate your time in listening / responding. Nitpicking makes good -> great, so it's appreciated. You also confirmed a few of my own suspicions.

Hell, the main reason I liked these forums, was the sometimes brutal, non-sugar coated reviews. I had just dropped by to say hi, but evo said post one...so I did... :S

quote:

Originally posted by gordan100 Nice, MSZ and theterran. Is this working - slow pad and bassline ?

I personally refrain from commenting on SC mixes in general due to a few things...so, sorry, I'm no help there...

Musically on the other hand...

My advice would be more broad, based on the previous songs you've posted in the last few pages.

In general, to me, I think they need more structure, and someone else had posted a comment along these lines a few pages ago as well.

Beginning, middle, end. Like a good story. You seem to be trying to tell a story about downtown night-life, and then you suddenly start talking about Mt. Everest. It's jarring, and hard to follow / get into.

You can take MSZ's The Sound of Cats Dying track for, er... example. (sorry that track has an odd name) It has basic house structure...Intro / mix-in section is about the first minute, then the bass. His synths get filtered in and out, presented in a very smooth fashion, and progresses to the main idea.

The way you introduce / present your synths and beat is very start-stop / on-off, and random. There's a lack of that smoothness.

However, I liked the degraded / bit-crushed pad at 2:00, but the transition into / out of it was rough and didn't last very long.

You also sound like you have alot of ideas you're trying to get out all at once in one song. Try to work towards one idea or theme with good transitions towards that idea. A song usually gives the listener cues that things are changing. They can be subtle, or abrupt, but a cue must be there. Faders, Filters, simplified or fragmented loops...just a few tools to help with transitions.

I don't like saying this, because doing this can also hinder one's own creativity, but...Find some music similar to your own, that's both on the professional level, and popular, and listen to how they organize their song. This might help in that respect.

quote:

Originally posted by theterran Hey, thanks for the listen! So, the entire kit? Kick? Hats? Add analog percussion? Kick...probably, it's a boring kick I think. Pretty firm on keeping the hats...Was a pain finding a metallic / wet timbre I liked...and smoothing them out was also...a pain. They're much sexier above 128 bitrate. Any suggestions on particular drum samples to peruse?

The kick sounds a bit 2008 trance.
It's a bit whoopy. I suspect something from Wave Alchemy could be better IMO

The drum 'loop' is a bit loopy for me, but maybe others see no issue with it?

I still cant post SC embeds for some reason.

Here is my biggest sounding track to date IMO.
Tech House, not me on vocals, thank Gawd

https://soundcloud.com/butlerrichard/make-me-sad

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Butler The kick sounds a bit 2008 trance. It's a bit whoopy. I suspect something from Wave Alchemy could be better IMO The drum 'loop' is a bit loopy for me, but maybe others see no issue with it?

Seems like a lot of the older trance had loopier beats in general, so that's what I was going for. A more consistent beat also makes sense to me, that repetition helps you achieve that trancelike state. I find when under the influence, I actually prefer less variation, and more repetition.

But, my guess is that it's not the loopyness of the drums, but the lack of supporting ambient FX. Background sounds coming in and out to accentuate the beat should clear that up. Just haven't gotten that far.

I'll check out Wave Alchemy, thanks.

-Edit- Having browsed through alot of their online promo stuff, most of the kicks seem geared towards house and techno, didn't hear anything that fit the bill for what I'd be looking for. Most of the kicks are alot rounder and thumpier, with less mid to low-mid articulation.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Butler I still cant post SC embeds for some reason. Here is my biggest sounding track to date IMO. Tech House, not me on vocals, thank Gawd https://soundcloud.com/butlerrichard/make-me-sad

Pretty dope, I'd definitely get down to that in the club.

Sounds like something you'd hear mid-set.

Was 2:05 intentional, where the sample is on top of itself and you hear "bah-by"? Seems maybe a little inconsistent with that build-up. Using it to break up the repetition of the repeated vocal sample?

Transition from Ending to outtro seems a bit abrupt to me...

Other than that, no real criticism, sounded good

Yea thats really clean Richard, nice job.

Still mainly arranging. Roughed out the rest of the breakdown / re-intro / build / theme 2.0 -> End. Build will need work, saving transitions for later.

2nd theme section seems maybe a little short...Might either extend with more melody or repeat the first melody again without the piano with the full layered backing. Will work on seating the piano in a little bit better, probably play with volume / reverb until it sits in nicely with good sound-space.

Did a little bit of work on the kick. Using 2 spliced kicks now, tried to keep the fluffier upper mids, and compliment with a thicker thuddier base layer...

Bass seems ok with a bit of tweaking in the 50hz range where the A# note resides. I poured through over 100 basses, and 50 or so some odd bass presets, and I can't find anything I like as much. Will have to do for now, short of making my own, which I might just end up doing.

Did a little bit of work on the clap as well, brought the eq. up in the 2Khz region a bit and opened up the middle-end with a touch more verb. Brought it's gain up in the mix about 3-4 db.

Seems like it's pretty much there, just need to do the intro, work on builds / transitioning and work on the nuance-y fine details.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Butler I still cant post SC embeds for some reason. Here is my biggest sounding track to date IMO. Tech House, not me on vocals, thank Gawd https://soundcloud.com/butlerrichard/make-me-sad

Really good man. Nailed it imo. Might add something constructive (if i can think if anything) later when at home

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Butler I still cant post SC embeds for some reason. Here is my biggest sounding track to date IMO. Tech House, not me on vocals, thank Gawd https://soundcloud.com/butlerrichard/make-me-sad

progresses into something quite groovy, nice!

quote:

Originally posted by theterran Still mainly arranging. Roughed out the rest of the breakdown / re-intro / build / theme 2.0 -> End. Build will need work, saving transitions for later. 2nd theme section seems maybe a little short...Might either extend with more melody or repeat the first melody again without the piano with the full layered backing. Will work on seating the piano in a little bit better, probably play with volume / reverb until it sits in nicely with good sound-space. Did a little bit of work on the kick. Using 2 spliced kicks now, tried to keep the fluffier upper mids, and compliment with a thicker thuddier base layer... Bass seems ok with a bit of tweaking in the 50hz range where the A# note resides. I poured through over 100 basses, and 50 or so some odd bass presets, and I can't find anything I like as much. Will have to do for now, short of making my own, which I might just end up doing. Did a little bit of work on the clap as well, brought the eq. up in the 2Khz region a bit and opened up the middle-end with a touch more verb. Brought it's gain up in the mix about 3-4 db. Seems like it's pretty much there, just need to do the intro, work on builds / transitioning and work on the nuance-y fine details.

the piano is a bit fluffy trance for me which i wouldnt be mad about - i love some of the synths in the background, gives that dark trance feel, also i think this would sound better at a higher bpm

its cool that you are going for an older sound, nothing wrong with that imo, I attempt that myself but its difficult sometimes
was reading what you said about kicks on the previous page, you could maybe try layering your kick with an 808 with a short decay so it doesnt boom

quote:

Originally posted by evo8 the piano is a bit fluffy trance for me which i wouldnt be mad about - i love some of the synths in the background, gives that dark trance feel, also i think this would sound better at a higher bpm

Nah, just happy getting constructive feedback, and stopping by. My friends usually just say "it's good." and leave it at that.

Something definitely needed to be there to compliment the main harmony though. I'm not the biggest fan of vocals...and nothing really fit like that clean trance-piano. That melody pretty much poured out...(like crown-royale on a bad day)

quote:

its cool that you are going for an older sound, nothing wrong with that imo, I attempt that myself but its difficult sometimes was reading what you said about kicks on the previous page, you could maybe try layering your kick with an 808 with a short decay so it doesnt boom

It's an odd concept going with an older sound, I guess...It's like...I spend alot of time listening to newer music, and I get tired of it, so I just want to make more of the older stuff I started out with, if that makes sense? And I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel with the older sounds, just polish 'em up a bit. I guess, another factor is, I'm not really making music in hopes of it being popular or making it big, I just like doing it, It's fun, and challenging...From both a musical, and technical standpoint. So I guess I don't really have to worry about what everyone wants to hear, and just make what I feel like making...

As for the kick, it's just about the way I want it I think. I've tried it on the 10" 500W sub, and it hits nicely. Will still look into the 808's sound though, might be useful for future projects, so thanks for the tip there!

Just need to finish baking this musical cake, and then put some frosting and sprinkles on it. Might post it up one more time once it's done if anyone's interested in hearing the final result.

Appreciate the listen / response, evo.

quote:

Originally posted by theterran As for the kick, it's just about the way I want it I think. I've tried it on the 10" 500W sub, and it hits nicely. Will still look into the 808's sound though, might be useful for future projects, so thanks for the tip there!

If you turn it up enough on the right playback system anything can sound bassy. The kick is definitely way too click-y. On my reference headphones I don't start getting bass until the highs become almost painfully loud and sharp. But then again, that's how a lot of professional trance is produced... doesn't mean it's necessarily worth emulating though...

You could also add a subby bassline to play along with the main bassline.

quote:

Originally posted by theterran Nah, just happy getting constructive feedback, and stopping by. My friends usually just say "it's good." and leave it at that. Something definitely needed to be there to compliment the main harmony though. I'm not the biggest fan of vocals...and nothing really fit like that clean trance-piano. That melody pretty much poured out...(like crown-royale on a bad day) It's an odd concept going with an older sound, I guess...It's like...I spend alot of time listening to newer music, and I get tired of it, so I just want to make more of the older stuff I started out with, if that makes sense? And I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel with the older sounds, just polish 'em up a bit. I guess, another factor is, I'm not really making music in hopes of it being popular or making it big, I just like doing it, It's fun, and challenging...From both a musical, and technical standpoint. So I guess I don't really have to worry about what everyone wants to hear, and just make what I feel like making... As for the kick, it's just about the way I want it I think. I've tried it on the 10" 500W sub, and it hits nicely. Will still look into the 808's sound though, might be useful for future projects, so thanks for the tip there! Just need to finish baking this musical cake, and then put some frosting and sprinkles on it. Might post it up one more time once it's done if anyone's interested in hearing the final result. Appreciate the listen / response, evo.

welcome mate...agree so much with that middle paragraph, took me a long time to get to that state of mind

Thanks for the feedback guys.

This is the other track on the EP I am sending out

Very Blondie Heart Of Glass baseline done on Roland JDXA

Having so much fun making music I like for once. Not trying to follow fashion, not even A/Bing as it often makes me get lost on what I was originally intending


https://soundcloud.com/butlerrichard/first-contact

quote:

Originally posted by Woony If you turn it up enough on the right playback system anything can sound bassy. The kick is definitely way too click-y. On my reference headphones I don't start getting bass until the highs become almost painfully loud and sharp. But then again, that's how a lot of professional trance is produced... doesn't mean it's necessarily worth emulating though... You could also add a subby bassline to play along with the main bassline.

Have heard this before...I try to use my hi-fi responsibly as a reference knowing this. I understand this is also the reason most producers are warned against using a sub with their monitoring setup...Where they hear a fairly balanced mix, but the mixdown ends up being weak in the lows on other systems because the sub is overcompensating.

Same reason I wouldn't ever trust my DT880's with bass, even though they're one of the more bassier reference cans out there...The mixes will do the opposite, and come out boomy and bloated.

I believe professionally mixed trance is done that way for the aforementioned reasons. By mixing your low-end a bit light, you can get more mid-range. The big ass system will pump out more than enough bass, where no sacrifice needs to be made to mid-range or dynamics in the mix itself. Not saying I'm doing this for that reason...I simply don't have the gear to accurately monitor in the 20-150hz region.

It really is a crap-shoot with the low-end in my case though, and getting some proper low-end monitoring, so I don't have to play bass / sub-bass lawn darts, is definitely high on my priority list.

I'll have a go at a separate mix and see if I can't get something a little more headphone / earbud friendly, since that's what most people usually use to listen with at their computers or on the go.

Thanks for the feedback though, I appreciate it, and will keep it in mind.

quote:

Originally posted by theterran Still mainly arranging. Roughed out the rest of the breakdown / re-intro / build / theme 2.0 -> End. Build will need work, saving transitions for later. 2nd theme section seems maybe a little short...Might either extend with more melody or repeat the first melody again without the piano with the full layered backing. Will work on seating the piano in a little bit better, probably play with volume / reverb until it sits in nicely with good sound-space. Did a little bit of work on the kick. Using 2 spliced kicks now, tried to keep the fluffier upper mids, and compliment with a thicker thuddier base layer... Bass seems ok with a bit of tweaking in the 50hz range where the A# note resides. I poured through over 100 basses, and 50 or so some odd bass presets, and I can't find anything I like as much. Will have to do for now, short of making my own, which I might just end up doing. Did a little bit of work on the clap as well, brought the eq. up in the 2Khz region a bit and opened up the middle-end with a touch more verb. Brought it's gain up in the mix about 3-4 db. Seems like it's pretty much there, just need to do the intro, work on builds / transitioning and work on the nuance-y fine details.

What is your bass setup man and what octave are you have your pad/s on - sounds like your pad and bass are in conflict a bit - you will have to find a way for your low end (bass line) to punch through your production.

Darek

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