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-- WIP thread (DJRYAN now allowed to post tracks)
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Paulino.. I can't pinpoint exactly what, but something in your tracks always sounds awkward to me - not the mix though, congrats on that. There's a serious lack of actual content in your tracks that just makes me cringe every time I hear the same bassline, plucked melodies and random growling effects in something you made. They can work, yes, but I think you just need to put a little more effort and thought into them for them to work. Now it's the same lousy effects repeating for that whole three minutes.

Maybe it's my end that's fucked, but I sometimes feel like you've got antlers for ears or something. There's nothing of interest in the track, and the weird "robot" sounds mentioned earlier make me shiver as they very much remind me of someone scratching a blackboard. And does 2:37 sound very awkward to anyone else? Maybe you forget the key you were in on the way to your keyboard on the other side of the room?

I don't want to patronize, but from now on I'd suggest you stop buying all that "gear" and arguing about your desk; focus on content. Your mixdowns aren't worth crap if your content is as stale as it is right now. My mate recorded the inside of his fridge with his 10 euro headset for half a minute, stretched the sample and added reverb. I could listen to that stuff for hours. Your WIP, on the other hand, I could barely listen till the end. Your situation is barely comparable to his, yet he made something much, much more interesting with a headset and Audacity.

*kick*
*kick*
*kick*
*kick*
*growwwl*
*plucked melody*
*nails on a blackboard*
*growwwl*
*kick*
*kick*
*kick*
*kick*

Don't consider this an insult, but just my opinion on what I would do if I had half the time, hardware, and software that you have to put on music. You remind me of that Italian guy that used to post here (DJ something) who tried perfecting his basslines for eons. Like practising for years to drill exactly the same kind of hole everyone else drills. Don't become him.

And hey - everybody else here might love it and think it's the best track in the world, I just don't like it too much. Don't take it to heart, just consider focusing on the content for a change.

Thanks for your input..sigh I didn't really know those one shot robotic samples were working or not. I guess I'll take them off and worry more about content.

Glad you can take the input

quote:

Originally posted by JEO Glad you can take the input

Yeah thanks bro, I'll make one more ITB wip and focus on what everyone is telling me, for example; content, cuts and boosts, groove and all that. It feels like i'm not ready for full hardware yet. You're also right about me perfecting basslines, its addicting. I'm Always trying to create the best structure with my basses to make a good journey but it seems i'm failing.

Do you automate stuff? It is key to adding a sense of progression to a track. Automate the volume of cymbals for example, over a longer period of time (8 bars minimum) add very slight panning automation, subtly automate the cutoffs, reverbs, all those little things to create a better flow.


Also, polyphonic chord progressions(not the voice note offset within synths, but actual synth global notes in piano roll, corresponding to the key you're working in) can add that magic, harmonically rich sound of interest to human ears. Did you study different types of chords and scales/modes? it is really useful knowledge, an absolute must for a producer ALONG with the technical knowledge you usually find around these forums.



I don't know what you already know, this is just general advice useful to anyone, even if only as a reminder.

Alright I learned to use a VCA fader for kick and bass so now they are not clipping or to loud, thanks Cubase 8. I got rid of some of the nail board screeching like effects and added more subtle ones. MY next wip will be a lot different, hopefully.

quote:

Originally posted by Innocence Lost ..sigh I didn't really know those one shot robotic samples were working or not. I guess I'll take them off and worry more about content.

Those robotic samples are part of the content. The entirety of a track - instruments, percussion, synths, fx, etc. are what make up the content of a track.

I'm not sure you're really listening to what people are saying or just reading it.

I'll give you one piece of advice, Juan, and it's up to you if you want to consider it: instead of trying to perfect the same track over and over again, with the same exact structure over and over again, I suggest you do something entirely new: experiment and explore sounds and percussion, rather than try to adhere to the same old formula. Because you're adhering to the same old formula , you will never perfect it unless you try and explore new methods.

Personally, if I were you, I'd turn on the TR-8, sequence it with one of your MIDI synths, and just mess around with patterns and percussion until it sounds right, to you. This is how people generally produce. you start with with a kick, for example, then add layers of percussion to drive it forward, adding some fx on some instruments, etc.. Then add the synth (or maybe play around with some synth lines/patterns until something strikes a chord, and build your percussion around that; or the other way around).

I say start exploring and experimenting, rather than envision what the track should sound like beforehand. It will never be perfect anyway, but the more you put in (practice and don't rush yourself), the more you'll get out of it.

Here's an example of a certain producer's evolution in style, all because of practice and experimentation:







Notice how each successive track is more stripped down, and there seems to be less going on? The last track is seemingly the most basic, but it's better than the previous two. Why? Because of more experimentation and less adherence to a certain "style" or vision of what a track should be like.

Perish the thought that adding a bunch of samples and fx will make your track better. It's about how everything works together as a whole, whether there is one synth and basic percussion, or many synths and fx-layered percussion.

quote:

Originally posted by AlphaStarred Those robotic samples are part of the content. The entirety of a track - instruments, percussion, synths, fx, etc. are what make up the content of a track. I'm not sure you're really listening to what people are saying or just reading it. I'll give you one piece of advice, Juan, and it's up to you if you want to consider it: instead of trying to perfect the same track over and over again, with the same exact structure over and over again, I suggest you do something entirely new: experiment and explore sounds and percussion, rather than try to adhere to the same old formula. Because you're adhering to the same old formula , you will never perfect it unless you try and explore new methods. Personally, if I were you, I'd turn on the TR-8, sequence it with one of your MIDI synths, and just mess around with patterns and percussion until it sounds right, to you. This is how people generally produce. you start with with a kick, for example, then add layers of percussion to drive it forward, adding some fx on some instruments, etc.. Then add the synth (or maybe play around with some synth lines/patterns until something strikes a chord, and build your percussion around that; or the other way around). I say start exploring and experimenting, rather than envision what the track should sound like beforehand. It will never be perfect anyway, but the more you put in (practice and don't rush yourself), the more you'll get out of it. Here's an example of a certain producer's evolution in style, all because of practice and experimentation: Notice how each successive track is more stripped down, and there seems to be less going on? The last track is seemingly the most basic, but it's better than the previous two. Why? Because of more experimentation and less adherence to a certain "style" or vision of what a track should be like. Perish the thought that adding a bunch of samples and fx will make your track better. It's about how everything works together as a whole, whether there is one synth and basic percussion, or many synths and fx-layered percussion.

Thanks for your input alpha..I can my self just throwing everything I have inorder to sound perfect while staying to the same style structure over and over again. I'm going to use my audio trs outs of my TR-8 and System 1 n start new.

quote:

Originally posted by AlphaStarred

Ahh yes, discovery of the month. This is why I love TA! Thanks Alpha

Yeah ^ Now I Know why modern uplifting sucks.

quote:

Originally posted by Vernon Wanderer Thats cool as it is totally subjective and doesn't define the track too much. But to clarify I was thinking about giving it an eq boost in the very low end to give it a more solid body, nothing dramatic.

you know what, i think i will change it, the attack portion isnt fitting in, thinking of something a bit flatter and yes, a bit more boomy

@darek - just a sub bass line

my overriding intention with this track is to have the pad dominating, everything else playing a supporting role

thanks for the feedback all! will post a new version later

Juan - not to rag more on you but....

You need to put more effort into the song writing part of music. Otherwise you will end up going nowhere. Focus less on making the track sound big, bassline big, the production etc etc and focus more on getting some sort of emotion into the track, something that stands out a little or will catch peoples ear.

i know you are trying but when i listen to your wips i feel that you are not moving forward, its just more of the same

alphastarred said to experiment and that is great advice, youve got some lovely equipment, how about putting it to some use?

it doesnt matter if the stuff you make doesnt immediately sound like Uplifting trance 2015 - if you have always have that goal in mind then eventually you make that kind of music in your own way, hard to explain in text.....

Its all good man...I know what I have to do now and I'll try my best to focus on song writing. I'm tough lad, so criticism is always good

Or maybe Juan is simply a perfectionist who'd like to perfect his sound before going any further. I don't blame him, I understand him.

I only do it cuz I'm only limited when it comes to actual song writing. I feel I'll learn more pretty soon and make a better song.

updated thanks...

quote:

Originally posted by Innocence Lost Alright I learned to use a VCA fader for kick and bass so now they are not clipping or to loud, thanks Cubase 8. I got rid of some of the nail board screeching like effects and added more subtle ones. MY next wip will be a lot different, hopefully.

Yeah um, what is happening at 2:37? That arp doesn't fit sonically, rhythmically, or musically into the track. I really don't want to sound like a jerk here, but are you familiar with key signatures?

Your production values are top notch. Your sounds are crisp and clear, the mixing is good--everything technical is extremely well done, to the point where I'm actually rather tempted to ask you if you'd like to do the mixdown on the WIP I posted the other day.

What you're missing is... warmth. Emotion. Music. I've gone through your Soundcloud and it does sound like the same track over and over (yes, dance music is formulaic by its very nature, that's not what I'm talking about): clear and lovely production, same structure, nothing interesting to listen to.

You--and I am not judging you here; I am commenting only on what I can observe and not assuming anything--strike me as one of those people who mistakes the tools for the task. To make it not personal, let me illustrate by way of example:

My stepfather is a relatively talented amateur photographer. In the course of his work, he runs into lots and lots of other amateur photographers. Many of them are pretty affluent young people who can afford THE BEST cameras and THE BEST lenses and THE BEST bags and accessories and doodads. For comparison, he still has an oldschool (high end, admittedly) film Nikon from about 1983 and a few lenses he's picked up over the years when budget permitted. Consistently, his photos turn out better than theirs and they don't understand why--they have THE BEST gear, after all, and spend hours talking about its specs.

What he has that they don't (and I certainly don't) is an eye. He can take good photos with a crappy instant camera. They think that because they have THE BEST tools, therefore they should be taking THE BEST photos, which is a mistake.

You have a lot of gear and spend a lot of time on this forum talking about your gear, but you've missed the forest for the trees. Good gear only makes the music in your head sound better, it doesn't substitute for being able to write something interesting. Maybe you don't have the talent to do that (I don't think I do, for sure), maybe you haven't uncovered it yet.

I'd like to suggest a couple of challenges for you that may help you unlock what's hindering you. Limitations (and I find this in my professional life all the time, which is in a creative field) enhance creativity, while unlimited options can actually reduce it. So maybe try any or all of these ideas:

1) Get yourself a copy of FL studio and write a track entirely inside it. No external gear of any kind, no plugins, no nothing. Only what comes bundled with the program itself. Work out technical ideas using only what's there.

2) Write melodies using only a piano sound. This may help you decouple writing something musically interesting from what it sounds like--if it sounds good as a plain piano sound (if in fl Studio use the Sytrus Grand Piano preset--it's not bad), it'll sound good transferred into a synth.

3) Write a track using a single piece of outboard gear, using it for every sound in the track. This may help you learn the quirks and ins and outs of a bit of equipment.

4) Download some of those !!!!FREE TRANCE LOOPS MIDI SAMPLE!!!! kits and build a track out of them. Sure, it'll sound cookie-cutter, but a) trance is formulaic and has to be, and b) nobody else needs to hear it

5) Think about the notion of patterns. A big-ish name trance DJ once told me that trance really boils down to bar patterns that build: 1, 2, 4, 8, sometimes 16, in 32-bar phrases. That's it. Layering those patterns is what creates tension and progression. E.g. four 1-bar kick loops gives you four bars. Double that with a small variation at the end to get 8, then 16, and the whole song should be 5-8 32-bar loops.

6) Try some not-trance. Again, your technical skills are excellent, while your musical skills are as yet not fully developed. Try your hand at some techno. Pure rhythm, plenty of room for experimenting with sounds, without having to worry so much about melody and chord progression. (To save yourself time, write it all in A minor--all white keys, starting on A--if key signatures aren't something you're super familiar with. Also works with trance; I'd guess the majority is written in A minor, followed by D and G minor).

7) Familiarize yourself more with the notion of chord progressions and key signatures. One useful trick I use (in FL studio) is to make a blank channel with the entire scale I'm using laid out as a chord. Enable background channels, and then in whatever piano roll I'm working in (bass, lead, w/e), I can be sure not to make mistakes when laying out melodies and arps and whatnot.

8) Try starting with a chord progression. Lay out 8 bars of whatever. Those become your pads. Build an arp out of that chord progression, and split the notes of the arp apart to create bassline and melody. (Look up 'hocketing.') This won't necessarily give you a finished track but may help you build something.

Anyway, these are just suggestions that may help you.

Was long searching active forum for producers after trance.nu got closed. I still recognize some nicknames from there in here, which is nice.
I was registered here since 2004 but forgot account email (was more of a reader than poster), so made a new one, hoping for good time, meeting some people again, and learning a thing or two.

As for me, I'm 'bedroom' producer (hobbyist more like), but I like what I do, even though I don't have much time to get my head around technical side of the matter right now, I'll eventually get there on my slow pace. That's just quick intro, since I can't find introduction section. Anyway back on topic:

(just having fun and trying to recreate some sounds from this nice track)

No comments needed, just posting to get the feel what people doing up here, what they like and to say hello

Cheers, and Merry Christmas.

quote:

Originally posted by deegee I'd like to suggest a couple of challenges for you that may help you unlock what's hindering you. Limitations (and I find this in my professional life all the time, which is in a creative field) enhance creativity, while unlimited options can actually reduce it.

This is precisely why I advised him to get off the computer and get to work with only his TR-8 and one other synth (Novation or System 1). Start experimenting and exploring, as I've already suggested, instead of throwing in every possible sample, fx, and synth lines into your WIPs.

Brian Eno wrote an entire article about this: http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/7.01/eno.html

An excerpt:

"The trouble begins with a design philosophy that equates "more options" with "greater freedom." Designers struggle endlessly with a problem that is almost nonexistent for users: "How do we pack the maximum number of options into the minimum space and price?" In my experience, the instruments and tools that endure (because they are loved by their users) have limited options.

Software options proliferate extremely easily, too easily in fact, because too many options create tools that can't ever be used intuitively. Intuitive actions confine the detail work to a dedicated part of the brain, leaving the rest of one's mind free to respond with attention and sensitivity to the changing texture of the moment. With tools, we crave intimacy. This appetite for emotional resonance explains why users - when given a choice - prefer deep rapport over endless options. You can't have a relationship with a device whose limits are unknown to you, because without limits it keeps becoming something else."


Another thing, Juan. Stop trying to get it "right" and "perfect" all the time. This is the biggest obstacle to creativity, imo. Computers and software get it "right," which is so often antithetical to art. Don't be afraid to make mistakes and experiment, as all good music and works of art are imperfect, and in that they have a more "human" element to them, making them rather more "right" than they should be, as it were.

Here's an example of a well-known classic, where only a few machines are used and "happy accidents" (aka experimentation) and limits produce the desired result:



"The following comment comes from Lee In Sync himself, on the music released on "Storm":

"There are only 4 instruments in the track - all Roland, 2 SH-101s, 1 TR-808 and 1 TR-909. There was no hardware sequencer either. Everything was synched using the drum machine triggers. The notes were recorded on the SH-101 onboard sequencers, so the tune was very limited. Also, one of the SH-101s was not working properly. I could not record the same note twice in the sequencer for some reason. You can't really set up a more basic studio than I used for that track. The track was a production nightmare in reality. I am surprised it ever made it to vinyl. There is tape noise on the recording where the cassette deck level was way to low. But....it does sound like rain. It all went wrong but ended up right it seems".

quote:

Originally posted by AlphaStarred Another thing, Juan. Stop trying to get it "right" and "perfect" all the time. This is the biggest obstacle to creativity, imo. Computers and software get it "right," which is so often antithetical to art. Don't be afraid to make mistakes and experiment, as all good music and works of art are imperfect, and in that they have a more "human" element to them, making them rather more "right" than they should be, as it were.

This, I feel, is the most important thing of all. I deliberately leave errors in the mix to make the tracks sound more human. Having everything too perfect is just boring.

quote:

Originally posted by OldLurker Was long searching active forum for producers after trance.nu got closed. I still recognize some nicknames from there in here, which is nice. I was registered here since 2004 but forgot account email (was more of a reader than poster), so made a new one, hoping for good time, meeting some people again, and learning a thing or two. As for me, I'm 'bedroom' producer (hobbyist more like), but I like what I do, even though I don't have much time to get my head around technical side of the matter right now, I'll eventually get there on my slow pace. That's just quick intro, since I can't find introduction section. Anyway back on topic: (just having fun and trying to recreate some sounds from this nice track) No comments needed, just posting to get the feel what people doing up here, what they like and to say hello Cheers, and Merry Christmas.

I don't understand some of your post, but anyway, great sound you've got here, really spot on reverb and delays, nice gnawing sounds, a really good example of trance.

quote:

Originally posted by OldLurker Was long searching active forum for producers after trance.nu got closed. I still recognize some nicknames from there in here, which is nice. I was registered here since 2004 but forgot account email (was more of a reader than poster), so made a new one, hoping for good time, meeting some people again, and learning a thing or two. As for me, I'm 'bedroom' producer (hobbyist more like), but I like what I do, even though I don't have much time to get my head around technical side of the matter right now, I'll eventually get there on my slow pace. That's just quick intro, since I can't find introduction section. Anyway back on topic: (just having fun and trying to recreate some sounds from this nice track) No comments needed, just posting to get the feel what people doing up here, what they like and to say hello Cheers, and Merry Christmas.

hey there, i quite like this!

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery This, I feel, is the most important thing of all. I deliberately leave errors in the mix to make the tracks sound more human. Having everything too perfect is just boring.

Yeah totally agree, for me all the interesting stuff tends to occur at the opposite end of the spectrum to the super polished and perfected sounds. I love to abuse sounds and tools to make unique and unusual noises, comb filtering, aliasing and bit-rate reduction, unstable pitches and voicings, all kinds of atonal noises... I could go on. But then again it's not really about the sounds, but how they are used that matters.

quote:

Originally posted by OldLurker (just having fun and trying to recreate some sounds from this nice track) No comments needed, just posting to get the feel what people doing up here, what they like and to say hello Cheers, and Merry Christmas.

Commenting anyway: I like how the melody develops and would very much like to hear how you build out of it back into the beat.

quote:

Originally posted by Robotrance ...these tracks are shite in my opinion and the sound quality is terrible.

That's perfectly fine, as many others don't share your opinion. The 1992 "Storm" track is considered a Techno classic. The sound quality is fine, it's just raw and analog, something which I'm guessing you're either not familiar with or just not particularly keen on.

quote:

secondly they dont show much creativity or experimentation really.

Ok.

quote:

id love to hear why and how these could help juan though.

Either you haven't read my post(s), or you've completely missed my point.

quote:

he needs piano theory and structure theory thats all.

That may help, but so would practicing, exploring and experimenting, as I've already mentioned. You can study theory all you want, but if you're not putting it into practice, you won't get anywhere.

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